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时代讲场文章(至2017年2月14日)

谈讨论批评

作者网址:http://go.to/daniel_cheung

前有同道鼓励笔者写一点关於知识分子、学者及堂会的东西,题目太宏伟,无一满意构思,最终只好搁笔。然而,一些零散要点却常浮现脑海,心想不如想到甚麽就分享甚麽。今次谈的是意见冲突。

近期的大议题

  去年在《时代论坛》这空间(印刷版和网上版)里发生很多意见冲突,最显着的是社会道德议题和锡安教会。讨论演变为谩骂,网上讨论区某君曾表示忍受不住,亦有牧者敬而远之。然而,这不是常态。这两类课题并非一般人茶馀饭後的话题,正反论者皆感到切肤之痛,所以他们十分在意得失,每一言论之出现均有政治考虑──这会否助长对方声势,对错不比谁在替谁说项重要。其中尤为明显的,是一群较激进的人士,我在此无意对他们的立场予以褒贬,只是觉得他们颇瞩目,表达手法强硬,常犯谬误,强词夺理,甚至带着怒气,当然,在他们眼中,那些叫做「义怒」,多多无拘。

  於是,标签日见流行:「左派」、「右派」、「基要派」、「自由派」、「极端自由主义」、「不属灵」等。这些字词固然可有学术或历史上的意义,但在他们(不是全部人)手中彷佛只代表着一些讲者不喜欢的东西,实质内容欠奉。愈多人用得随便,运用这些词语的讲论就愈难促进沟通。

为甚麽要讨论和批评?

  不过,话说回来,即使不是逼切的议题,在所谓的「平日」里,我们又容得下多少议论,尤其是那类明明地反对某些立场的言论(这是本文「批评」的意思)?诚然,批评不是顺耳的。只是,如果那些说话不存恶意,无论是否真知灼见,我们何不宽容看待,乐意回应,促进了解?注意,这没有假设异见者的想法一定是最正确,有些人觉得批评者自以为拥有真理而去挑战建制,这敌我思维是不必要的,只会使人遗漏一个很简单的意思:我们是否愿意与别人沟通?

  由於人都不喜欢受批评,或许让我谈一谈批评的好处。首先,批评者的缺席未必是好事,看不见听不到,不表示一个思想无懈可击、所有信徒彻底明白心悦诚服。究竟那些讲得闹哄哄的话题,广大信徒认受了多少?君不见参与堂会、机构或学院活动的常客总是某一小撮人?莫说平信徒,有时连机构搞的各大运动在神学院也没有很多人理会。究竟我们当说他们不认识信仰之涵义、神学偏差、不关心教会,还是反问某些运动或思想是否真的逼切重要、是否只为一群人在「吹水」?由此可见,批评可带来改进,若受批评者肯回应,更可令多人认识某思想背後的原委。何乐而不为?再者,若那批评的确更合理,接受它又何妨?对於批评者、被批评者及广大读者,这都是有益无害的。

  在基督教圈子里,人们对批评特别繄张,其中原因是认为批评者总是说话苛刻,单是这点足见是错了。然而,充其量那只是批评态度之错,不是批评内容之错,若因此不顾那批评,就是本末倒置了。再者,究竟所谓态度差,是因为批评的内容必然存在自己不喜欢的异见,还是批评者真的在「加盐加醋」?还有,我们须区分肆意捣乱和一时气忿,恶意中伤和行文风采,两个後者皆为人之常情,只有黑白死板的人才会耿耿於怀。

左顾右盼

  批评者若用真姓名按自己的信念提出批评,是需要勇气的,这值得欣赏。若他是教牧或神学院老师,所需之勇气则更大。信徒中流传一个未经证实的想法,就是他们要顾全所属堂会、机构或学院的形象,在很多事上避讳不发表任何即使是出於个人名义的言论,纵有发表,也得左顾右盼、四平八稳。(在此不是要求他们必须事事表态,只是他们的确出奇地少发言。)若这想法属实,是绝对值得体谅的,但整体来说对教会却未必是好事──我们有一班人才不能自由地按他们的见识为信徒提供好意见!

  就此我想提出两项反省和呼吁:一、我们可否培养一种宽容讨论的气氛,而不立刻跳到判别正邪或质疑其所属机构或学院的敌我思维?无论你如何渴望世人明白真理,仍得承认教育和成长的过程需要空间,若我们甚麽书都不给学生看,或在每一页都加上注脚,情词逼切地呼喊这是异端那是道德沦亡,他的思想为人最终可以有多成熟,他信主,是因为性格懦弱还是心悦诚服?再者,世上有多少事是黑白分明的呢?在核心教义问题外,很多标榜为基督教立场的,究竟有多少是信徒在任何情况下必须接受的?不许别人提出来,或高明地制造压力,只是眼不见为乾净,於事无补。

  二、基督徒学者(或一些建制外的有识之士)在此可能有独特的优势,他们的训练和环境令他们可接触不同思想,能快捷地掌握事理,他们亦不用顾全机构或神学院的形象,更不用担心有堂会以停止奉献来威胁。(这只是假设,但可构成白色恐怖。)诚然,现今超越堂会视野的言论和活动空间里,基督徒学者担起了不少活跃角色。不过,话说回来,他们不是没有半点心理压力的,他们也会因吃力不讨好而息事宁人。难听点讲,既不用「靠教会开饭」,也就不必为教会操心。纵然难听,这话却有几分真,再一次,让我们想想那些缺席的人,信徒中受高深教育的人多,但他们(特别是人文社会学科的)有多少会讨论整体教会的事、积极搞活动?为甚麽?

结语

  言论文字,不是只为宣讲教义、传福音或为某某运动服务,亦不是只可在「文学」名下生存;耳根清静,不代表天下太平,更可能是漠不关心,各怀鬼胎。真正的团契应该包括思想上的交流,而不是唯唯诺诺,只容附和求教不容批评。面对这一切,我们倒不如回归简单的做人道理,不想甚麽建制攻防战,认定人生而会思考和求知,信主的人自然会思考信仰,不论是神学院老师、教牧、学者或任何信徒,既自觉教会一家,何不更多沟通,提出意见,并宽容地欣赏别人提出批评?思考可以是有乐趣的,思考自己的信仰和所爱的教会,信徒之性也。我们需要的,只是一个有宽容、有尊重、有对话的讨论批评空间,让真诚的心灵在其中成长。

(原载http://www.christiantimes.org.hk,时代论坛时代讲场,2005.2.12)

Donationcall

舊回應61則


張國棟 / 2005-03-08 22:20:52.0

一個試點


有一個試點,可看看我們是否對事不對人,是否只有政治議程,沒有求知的心態:


如果有人經常與你立場不合,但有一次所講的話你是覺得有道理的,你究竟會不會表示認同,會不會多謝別人的提醒?


反面例子:我們已在這裡語重心腸地多次勸勉乙嘗試與人對話,然而,一次又一次,當別人對他說了一些應該是挺有道理的話,例如有人請他提供多一些理由,他就會立刻沉默。很多次的了。他的出現,只是囫圇吞棗地指摘所謂的自由派,或指摘別人對信仰不認真,即使有時他的指摘根本是不對題的。別人提點了,他若不繼續指摘,就是沉默不言。可惜。


沒有這樣的胸襟,難怪別人避之則吉。再者,這也不見得是很有基督徒體統和禮貌的表現。一面嚷著要對信仰認真,另一面卻用這樣的表達手法,不是很奇怪麼?


共勉之。


 

Liberal / 2005-03-06 14:48:41.0

To 蒲生

Dear 蒲生,
Nice meeting you.
Nice to talk with you.
You are really knowlwdgeable!
God bless,
Liberal

Liberal / 2005-02-17 10:02:09.0

To 蒲生

are u still attending the tuesday lessons



if yes, may i meet u next tuesday



if yes, may we talk over e-mail



thx

蒲生 / 2005-02-17 09:28:33.0

回ng kar yi--on "liberals"

i think the great albert schweizer fit the label "liberal [christian] who strayed too far" ng kar yi is describing. he evidently took exception of the many traditional and "fundamental" teachings of the church. was even forbidden to preach and teach religion by the missionary board while serving in africa.

another great liberal christian is our fellow countryman and china's first class theologian 趙紫辰.

these theologically liberal christians have great character and are by no means immoral as ng kar yi's response seems to imply. indeed it is a quite common misunderstanding that "liberals" are impious or even immoral (of course what is moral may be 見仁見智).

ng certainly points out correctly that terminology sometimes need clarification. "liberals" are sometimes described as if equivalent to leftwing/socialists. othertimes in opposite though. 趙紫辰 was indeed explicitly categorized as 自由主義者 and consequently considered suspicious (as in the case of most intellectuals) by the chinese government in 1950s.

張國棟 / 2005-02-17 02:21:41.0

處境與回應



「創造、神義、救贖、末世——回應有關海嘯災難的言論」引發的討論,和剛發表的「「放心吧,你的罪赦了」(太九:1-8)」,關君之回應,及早前青年人論述問題等,似乎都指向某個關注,我覺得值得談論一下。



余枝鳳說「我們可以作遼闊的交流,作大膽的假設,考慮每一個可能性;但在振災的行動上,暫且低調地處理一些立場,亦是智慧」。馮達凱說「我們別再互相指責了,使罪伏在自己的舌頭下」。關君說「若我有了全世界的智慧,講贏了全世界的智者,擁有了全本聖經神的真理,卻傷盡弟兄的心,踐踏了一切的人,於我無益,不如棄甲歸田。」(其實有點不明他想說甚麼。)



或許我可補充一下我在這裡主張的討論批評態度。以賑災為例,正如我之前說過,說一句沒有錯的話,不等如說了一句合宜的話,因為要看處境。我們未必適宜對一位剛會考科科不及格的人說,社會總需要有人做低下層工作的。可見我沒有反對按情況看說話論述的適切性。



然而,問題是所謂的處境是甚麼?若A對「香港基督徒對論海嘯」的處境的理解跟B的不同,A可以認為某些說話是無適切性問題的,即使B會覺得那已經是很大件事。例如,可能B看得很多yahoo那裡的基督徒如何冒犯別人,所以每逢看見別人談海嘯苦難的原由,就很自然地覺得是不當的,甚至是無謂的執拗(這看似余君的想法)。



無可否認,A不能抽離或漠視B對他所理解的處境所產生的反應,這點很多人都很在意很介意甚至很激動地表達過。但另一方面,B似乎亦應尊重A對他也有份的處境的理解。



試想,當C在災場救災,D走去問他香港的時代論壇改了新版好看嗎?那當然是十分不當,D是親見看著災情,亦知道別人正在做甚麼。但是,換一個情況來說,當C和D皆在網上談論,海嘯已過了三個月,他們也覺得他們已經了努力去捐款,他們現在沒法親身走去災場,那麼,D問C香港的時代論壇改了新版好看嗎,就沒有這個適切性的問題。



若把這假想情況說得尖銳一點,可假設D問C的時候,是海嘯後一星期,D認為他真的已做盡了他能力範圍裡的一切,心裡也仍感到難受,但他心靈仍有點空間去工作,去跟別人談話,他若問C香港的時代論壇改了新版好看嗎,或究竟歷代智者如何看苦難,或討論某些基督徒的看法有沒有不當之處,C可否憑自己對海嘯處境的理解(可能仍是哀慟不已,無法做任何事,自己也向上司請了幾天假),指D無智慧,只顧辯論,只想著勝出一些無聊的辯論,沒有愛心不去行善?(且不談C說這些話時,有時候其實已在參與討論,只是他不認為他在激發爭論,就如陳國偉說他的文章不旨在加入爭論的行列,雖然其實他已在支持和反駁某些看法。)



再舉例說,若有人走來指責我略為負面地職場神學評論,因為他覺得教會很缺乏這方面教導(或許他本人亦有這類負面經驗),所以認為,即使現有的職場神學不太好,我也不應該指出來,你會怎樣看?很可能你會對他說:「朋友,我又不覺得如此逼切喎,咁都唔講得?不是罷?!況且,職場神學談了五六年,到現在才略為負面地評論一下,算得上甚麼應該不應該?」



我們當留意論述的處境,但我們卻不可天真地假設人人對該處境的理解是相同的,更不應天真地假設只有一個正確的對該處境的理解。這是其中一個原因我常常不贊成各位時常揣測別人背後的動機或心理,然後基於此揣測提出武斷的批評。因為這可能(只是可能)可以很霸道的,我緊張某件事,所以你就不准講反話,不得問問題,因為這些行動在我眼中是輕視該事情的嚴重性和逼切性,本身已是罪大惡極的行動。你若見我如此緊張,遷就一下不談也罷,這是人情,但你若不欲遷就那麼多,而我仍想儘辦法以各種言論打壓你的行動,我卻是沒道理的。



在一般情況下(即不包括,例如,海嘯剛發生期間),在這網站裡,我們對別人的處境的認識是極之少的,我們很多時都不能確定別人說某些話的動機,我寧願大家多點溝通,先問清楚,總好過不由分說地動輒指別人無情,只顧辯論等等。



最後要補充一點,我不是相信(更遑論主張)人可以純中立客觀毫無個人感受地思考和討論,我只是期望大家多留意這方面,免去一些不必要的爭執。

Liberal / 2005-02-17 01:53:19.0

On "Some thoughts on Liberalism"

excellent article!



some responses:



//In China, the former Soviet

Union and her Warsaw Pact vassal nations, liberals are those who oppose, and hence are persecuted

by, the orthodoxy and established order of communism and totalitarianism. Likewise, in the Muslim

countries, liberals are those who don't follow all or many of the traditional teachings and

practices of Islam. As such, they are considered the enlightened ones, from the perspective of those

of us living in the free world.//



"from the perspective of those of us living in the free world" is good deconstruction but carries the side-effect of ethical relativism: looking at the number of imprisoned journalists in China today, i prefer the perspective of the free world, i cannot call imprisonment of journalists acceptable "from the perspective of China"



//a lot of liberals may stray much further, denying the divinity of Christ and His

bodily resurrection, and rejecting the exclusivity of the christian path of salvation (salvation

only by the faith in the grace of Christ alone) and various other fundamental Christian doctrines.

Essentially, their belief systems degenerate to either Universalism (i.e. everyone will be saved;

different religions are just different paths to Heaven) or work-based salavation (i.e. one is saved

as long as one's good deeds outweigh one's evil doing).//



"stray further" = explore further


why universalism is a "degeneration"?


haven't heard of work-based salvation in liberal theology




//To liberals that strayed this far, and feel free to pick and choose biblical teachings to believe or

reject, as if they are eating a spiritual buffet, my advice to them is (Matthew 7:20-21) {20} Thus,

by their fruit you will recognize them. {21} "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter

the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.//



a piece of document can contain true portions and false portions, determination of which is which is necessary


liberals bear good fruit of inclusive love


the will of Father for us is to love our neighbours, to accept the oppressed and social minorities, as what jesus has done




//Liberals often boast that they are tolerant, humble, sensitive, and accommodating. My reminder to

them is that, in the biblical context, these virtues are always practiced on the basis, but not the

compromise, of sound bibilical truths.//



liberal take conscience, reason, and sacred documents such as the bible seriously to find the "truth"



//In North America and Western Europe, it is little surprise that religious liberals are generally

more inclined towards political parties and policies that favor big government, high tax, lavish

welfare, and lax morality. To these self-deceptive liberals, the gruesome and heart-breaking tragedy

of the communist experiment in the Eastern Europe, the former soviet Union, and China seems to be of

litte relevance.//



liberals won't go back to planned economy, certainly not totalitarianism of those iron curtians you have mentioned, they just remind us to care for the poor, as jesus did

Liberal / 2005-02-17 01:07:44.0

回 張國棟 = from Liberal

...

佚名Anonymous / 2005-02-17 00:34:21.0

回 張國棟

非常讚成減少敵對思維,我們需要的,是一個有寬容、有尊重、有對話的討論批評空間,讓真誠的心靈在其中成長。但未必需要"放下自己的陣營或派系式思維",陣營或派系的存在是一個實況,有民主派,親中派,是實況.我認為民主派無需要刻意淡化(?出賣)民主派身份去換取對話.派系的自我意識可以存在,只要派系間互相尊重地和平對話便好了.



//你(們)如此堅持自由神學,大概是你(們)認識不淺,深感認同。請問你們在哪裡認識自由神學的呢?在某些堂會裡?香港這類思想的教會多嗎?//


書本:


Moody Handbook of Theology


see my story here: http://www.voy.com/174951/5/291.html


now i am reading this one:


http://www.uua.org/bookstore/product_info.php?products_id=444


神學院: my story again:http://www.voy.com/174951/5/291.html



網站:


http://www.voy.com/174951/2/217.html


http://www.voy.com/174951/892.html


http://www.voy.com/174951/3/1027.html


不多.以聖公會,天主教及正教會較包容自由神學.
香港沒有絕對自由派的教會,我正在成立一個.

木道人 / 2005-02-16 19:41:10.0

討論反思

正如筆者話:我們可否培養一種寬容討論的氣氛,而不立刻跳到判別正邪或質疑其所屬機構或學院的敵我思維?無論你如何渴望世人明白真理,仍得承認教育和成長的過程需要空間、。
我有句說話想講:當我們覺得擁有真理的時候要小心呀!
因為你己排除了其他的可能性。

關祥文 / 2005-02-16 16:30:29.0

張國棟請保重

盲拳打死老師傅,請你好好休息,來日方長,可見知識和修養的重要,大家都慢慢講啦,愛你心邊的人,也善待素未謀面的網友,活出聖言,我正為我的衝動內咎,不想多言,也感多說話言語無味,不如不說。大家努力!新年過步!

若我有了全世界的智慧,講贏了全世界的智者,擁有了全本聖經神的真理,卻傷盡弟兄的心,踐踏了一切的人,於我無益,不如棄甲歸田。

張國棟 / 2005-02-16 15:47:03.0

回應

見地球人如此有興趣問,又請各位看我的文章,就讓我嘗試回應,然後再答其他人。(其實也是因為連日失眠,來這裡消磨一下。深夜難眠,淒愴雨聲,幽幽哀愁,漫漫長夜...)


回地球人:


一.地球人的「霸道」是甚麼意思?我不清楚。這可能跟你之前問苦難時那問題有關,我曾答道,若善是神的本質或本性,我們就不能在神以外尋求善,或認為善是會與神對立的(即神會做惡事)。這講法是有點吊詭的,一方面似是「你講哂」的自圓其說,另一方面若從形而上思考進路看,是十分正常和自然的思想。至於霸權與真理與知識,可參考我之前寫的一篇《論真理一》裡有關霸權的講法, http://www.christiantimes.org.hk/Common/Reader/News/ShowNews.jsp?Nid=25893&Pid=6&Version=0&Cid=264&Charset=big5_hkscs


二.地球人說「If I am a good Christian, I would have this idea too 」這裡的idea即「以人的努力使聖經預言實現」,其中包括令一場大戰爭出現。其實一個好的基督徒不需要有這idea的。人雖有自由意志,但實際可改變的歷史裡的事情其實不多,這點雖然不是那些社會改革人士(包括反戰人士)喜歡聽的,但事實卻很明顯,一件小事隨時可以觸動群情,改變政經局面,又或者,一件小事隨時可以令一個偉大政治計劃完蛋。你說向穆斯林宣戰是必須條件,這個想法已帶有太多假設了。


當然,更重要的理由是,若神是全知,即祂所知的事不會落空,而祂知道有這場大戰(假設該段聖經沒有其他合理解釋),這事就必然會發生。只是我們不知道是何時和為何。故此,一個相信神是全知的基督徒不一定有意欲要用自己的努力促使一場大戰發生的,既是預言了的,就會發生,人無法改變。(這不是說預「定」了,但詳細理由不解釋了,看我稍後的一個系列──未知道發表日期。)


地球人說:「假冒彌賽亞, must be Christians 」。我也不肯定,一方面,不是基督徒才熟悉聖經的,另一方面,這概念在聖經中是甚麼意思,是教會領袖?是某種勢力?還是甚麼?



回liberal:


我沒有混淆原則和細節,不過,整個問題本身是小問題,不贅。


這為小問題,是因為我不認為你這樣署名必定不對(細心點看,我沒有這樣說過),只是覺得不太合宜,亦有代表性的困難。然而,你(們)三番四次的回應給我的感覺是有很強的敵我思維,我完全無意亦沒有在字裡行間不小心地暗示我要分化你們,但你可以想得出「分化」,出現危機意識。我看到你的留言,倒嚇了一跳。看來,拙文鼓勵各人放下自己的陣營或派系式思維,雖然你曾表認同,但實際上你並不是這樣想。


當然,要補充我沒有假設有一種純中立的態度或溝通方式,畢竟,人有commitment才容易把問題想得深入一點,拙文只是呼籲各位減少某些敵對思維而已。


好奇一問:你(們)如此堅持自由神學,大概是你(們)認識不淺,深感認同。請問你們在哪裡認識自由神學的呢?在某些堂會裡?香港這類思想的教會多嗎?


回別處的虞君的留言:


多謝妳的贈言!妳說的對,我也是知道的,但卻仍可感慨,因為火拼太多,旁人會不斷迴避,討論也就難以進深,只可惜這些都不是一兩個人可以改變的情形,故感嘆。就如我們看見乙依然militant,強烈敵我思維仍然在不同人身上可見。


Kar Yan Ng / 2005-02-16 15:01:35.0

Some thoughts on Liberalism

Liberalism means different things in different historical and social contexts. In general, my observation is that it refers to a system of beliefs which are considered to be "free" or "liberated" from the "restrictions" of another, usually more traditional and orthodox, system of belief. Depending on one's perpective, this could be viewed as good or bad.



For example, in economic philosophy, a liberal is one who believes in laissez-faire free-market economy that has a minimum of government intervention and regulation. In China, the former Soviet Union and her Warsaw Pact vassal nations, liberals are those who oppose, and hence are persecuted by, the orthodoxy and established order of communism and totalitarianism. Likewise, in the Muslim countries, liberals are those who don't follow all or many of the traditional teachings and practices of Islam. As such, they are considered the enlightened ones, from the perspective of those of us living in the free world.



In the context of contemporary Christianity, liberalism covers a wide spectrum of belief systems that disagree with the traditional or orthodox teachings of Christianity in various ways and to various degrees. Some accept homosexuality, abortion, and ordination of women, deny the hisotricity of the Creation account in Genesis 1-11, deny the ierrancy and authority of Scriptures, etc. Meanwhile, they may still hold to most of the other orthodox teachings of Christianity.



On the other hand, a lot of liberals may stray much further, denying the divinity of Christ and His bodily resurrection, and rejecting the exclusivity of the christian path of salvation (salvation only by the faith in the grace of Christ alone) and various other fundamental Christian doctrines. Essentially, their belief systems degenerate to either Universalism (i.e. everyone will be saved; different religions are just different paths to Heaven) or work-based salavation (i.e. one is saved as long as one's good deeds outweigh one's evil doing).



To liberals that strayed this far, and feel free to pick and choose biblical teachings to believe or reject, as if they are eating a spiritual buffet, my advice to them is (Matthew 7:20-21) {20} Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. {21} "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.



Liberals often boast that they are tolerant, humble, sensitive, and accommodating. My reminder to them is that, in the biblical context, these virtues are always practiced on the basis, but not the compromise, of sound bibilical truths.



Politically, many religious liberals like to describe themselves as progressives (whereas conservatives are viewed as being backward, self-righteous, stone-headed, and regressive of course). Similar to the Communist teachings by Karl Marx, they believe that human beings are capable of perfecting themselves by their own ability, without God's grace and empowerment, and that the human civilization is progressing towards an egalitarian utopia, where there is no more social, cultural, and ideological disparity. Religions will gradually become non-essential, diminished, marginalized, and possibly become extinct eventually.



In North America and Western Europe, it is little surprise that religious liberals are generally more inclined towards political parties and policies that favor big government, high tax, lavish welfare, and lax morality. To these self-deceptive liberals, the gruesome and heart-breaking tragedy of the communist experiment in the Eastern Europe, the former soviet Union, and China seems to be of litte relevance.

地球人 / 2005-02-16 01:11:59.0

一點澄清

我想說明,要留意全世界所有類似言論,我舉的只是其中一個例子.

地球人 / 2005-02-16 00:32:48.0

聖殿山有座清真寺.....除非有人向穆斯林宣戰....

After I read the last two paragraph something about Muslim of "從海嘯說起" 吳主光弟兄, what would you think?

http://www.hkpec.org/tst/pastersharing/050116pastorsharing.htm

地球人 / 2005-02-16 00:08:37.0

Thanks 黃國棟

Thank you very much for your reply. I need time to digest your words.

Everybody try try la, try to avoid 哈米吉多頓大戰 la....

地球人 / 2005-02-15 23:50:06.0

聖殿 (continue with "3 items want to discuss")

自稱神那人,要聖殿被重建,才可坐在殿裡自稱是神.聖殿唔起,便沒事了.況且,聖殿山有座清真寺.....除非有人向穆斯林宣戰....

黃國棟 / 2005-02-15 23:47:18.0

To: 地球人 (reply to your three questions)

Hi 地球人, it’s me 黃國棟 again


Before I begin my attempt to answer your three questions, let me strongly emphasize that I am only speaking for myself. Don’t quote anything I say as representing Christians. In fact, no one can claim that his/her view represents the “Christian perspective”.


1.“霸道”的上帝?


This is a classic analogy of the four blind men trying to describe an elephant by touching its body. Different people read the Bible and pick and choose the image of God that fits their needs or expectations. (Warning: I am no exemption, so readers beware!). But the truth (at least that’s how I understand it) is that God is a multi-facet God.


God has many characteristics, including omnipotent; love; faithfulness; justice; mercy; external; holiness etc. “霸道”carries a negative tone. But although I disagree with Ken_S most of the time, I actually agree that it is clear in the Bible that God does not tolerate worshipping anything else other than Him.


Yet this characteristic must be considered in context with God’s other characteristics. And it is my belief the God’s characteristics CANNOT CONTRIDACT with each other. God must uphold justice, so He cannot just forgive all the sinners (universal salvation), yet He has mercy, so He came to earth and die for us so that we can be saved by grace through faith. And from the Bible we also learned that God has mercy on the unbelievers – see how God negotiated with Abraham.


I guess your question is really “What will God do to those who have no chance to know and accept Him?” I don’t have a definite answer for you on this one. But I question whether this is as straightforward as some Christians (especially the Calvinists) think: that God created these people because God wants to put them in hell? I don’t have enough time or space here to tell you my thinking, but you can email me (info@drgordonwong.net) and I’ll send you more information.


2. 哈米吉多頓大戰


My concern is, some Christians want all words of bible come true, the they will use all the methods to make it true The point is, human can aviod any war, we should concerntrate to aviod war, if we can achieve it, then no 哈米吉多頓大戰 will happen.


There is a difference between God’s will and men’s desire. We do not want war, and we should do everything possible to avoid war. But I doubt whether we can avoid any war. And God’s will is going to prevail.


Let me use a personal example to illustrate my point: Humans don’t like illness and death. I am a doctor. My job is to cure diseases and to save patient’s life (actually I am just doing health outcome research and medical informatics administration, so my role in curing diseases and saving lives is only indirect). But can I avoid illness and death for any patient? NO. All patients eventually will get sick and die. So is the job of doctors meaningless? Shall we just give up and say: “patients are going to die anyway, why border?”


As doctors, we try to help patients through difficult times. That’s the value of medicine. As Christians, our job is to do our best to be the Prince of Peace. But this does not conflict with God’s revelation that wars will happen. Our duty is to help our fellow “地球人”to experience God’s grace during difficult times. That’s the mandate for Christians.


What I am saddened is seeing many Christians trying to pour salt into a wound after some natural or man-made disasters. This is like an obese patient coming into the emergency room having a heart attack, and all the doctor says is that “you deserve this because you do not exercise and you eat too much and you …”


3. 假冒彌賽亞


I agree with your point that this anti-Christ must know the Bible. But can he/she be called a Christian? This is a semantic problem. Any anti-Christ can call himself/herself Christian in order to mislead others. How do we know? By trying to study the Bible and really understand the whole picture, and not to rely on those so-called “experts”


I am really glad that you have the desire to seek the truth and I have a chance to share many thoughts with you. Keep it up.

地球人 / 2005-02-15 22:49:10.0

I suggest read again this article "談討論批評 " first, and then see my "3 items want to discuss"

As title

地球人 / 2005-02-15 22:32:56.0

3 items want to discuss 少許保充

天災,我們無力避.人禍,絕對有力避免.

地球人 / 2005-02-15 21:51:50.0

3 items want to discuss

“霸道”的上帝? Just want to understand, is it real?

What actually Christians thinking from their brain(heart)?

Would Christian really want to see 哈米吉多頓大戰 happen? I ask this because according to the bible, it will happen before the judgement day, If human can aviod 哈米吉多頓大戰, this 預言會落空. I guess the main concern of all Christian are 預言會落空, then bible words(the part about the end of the day) will be in vain.If 預言 will come true, then they can say "all words in the bible is true".

If I am a good Christian, I would have this idea too.

My concern is, some Christians want all words of bible come true, the they will use all the methods to make it true The point is, human can aviod any war, we should concerntrate to aviod war, if we can achieve it, then no 哈米吉多頓大戰 will happen.

I know it will have many reaction if no 哈米吉多頓大戰 happen, but for human beings, it is GOOD.

Another example I am really worry, another condition of "the end of the day", is somebody 假冒彌賽亞, It must be a Christian, I don't think it will be a person who never know the bible or other religious person because they don't believe the bible.

假冒彌賽亞, must be Christians.

Let's have a slow discussion about this, anybody welcome to raise their opinion, 懇求不要罵戰,只說出自己的意見.

Ken_S,求你今次只是看,好嗎?

3 items here:

1.“霸道”的上帝?

2. 哈米吉多頓大戰

3. 假冒彌賽亞