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时代讲场文章(至2017年2月14日)

性倾向歧视问题的复杂性
论歧视与性倾向歧视

了避免不必要的误会,让我开宗名义表明立场:我个人是反对同性婚姻合法化及同性伴侣领养子女,但至於反性倾向歧视应否立法这个议题,我还未有定论,因为议题相当复杂,牵涉的层面很多。以下简短的讨论,我只能圈点一二,但也盼望抛砖引玉,集思广益,使这议题能得到较理性、较深入的审视。

  「性倾向歧视」包括数个重要分题,我这里尝试先分疏一下的歧视的概念与性倾向歧视问题。

  歧视的观念常常被人误解,认为只要受到看似不平等的待遇(unequal treatment),就是相等於受到歧视。其实不然,不平等的待遇并不一定等同於歧视。如果我是导演,我打算拍一部完全关於白人的电影,我不雇用黑人或黄皮肤的演员,我所作的,不能算是歧视,因为拍这部电影,肤色是有相关性的分别的(relevant difference),所以我对黑人或黄皮肤演员的不平等待遇是合理的,不算歧视。

  但问题亦随之而来,那麽那些是不合理的不平等待遇呢?如果我是民航飞机公司的雇主,我要请一位飞机师,我可不可以因为知道申请人是同性恋者就不雇用他(她)。他(她)是不是同性恋到底对这份工作能否胜任又有何干呢?飞机师的首要工作,是安全地把飞机升降,把乘客由A 点送到B点,无论对方是同性恋或异性恋者,只要不影响工作,那麽他(她)的性取向与这份工作到底又何干呢? 况且,假设有两位飞机师,一位是异性恋者H,但他(她)常酗酒,与另一位飞机师G,他(她)是同性恋者,G没有不良嗜好,你作为民航飞机的雇主,你要聘请(或解雇)H或G呢?异性恋与同性恋在这份工作上是没有相关性的分别(irrelevant difference)的,所以在这个情况底下,因个人的性取向而不给对方平等的待遇是不合理的,是歧视。

  那麽我们需要进一步问,在哪一些工种上,我们可以因为一个人的性取向,而合理地不给对方平等待遇呢?如果我办一间私立基督教中学,不受政府资助,完全是由基督徒,或认同基督教信仰人士集资开办,教导一夫一妻的家庭伦理,对教师有严谨道德操守的要求,那麽身为校长,我不聘请同性恋者为教师,这样做是否算是歧视呢?我觉得答案是很明显的:当然不是。因为同性恋者的性取向,已经有违办学价值理念,所以这个不平等待遇是合理的,不能构成歧视。(同样的,如果真的有同志团体自己自立办学校,教导他们自以为是对的性伦理,选择不聘请异性恋者为教师,我也不认为是歧视。其实在美国纽约已经有这类同志团体办的中学,可参考:http://www.hmi.org/ 。)

  现在谈一些比较令人头痛的例子。如果我所办的基督教学校的一部分财政资源是来自政府,换句话说,有一部分钱是来自纳税人,甚至是同性恋者纳税人,那麽我不请同性恋教师,又或者不租借场地给同志群体使用,算不算歧视呢?我相信在某一个意义上不算歧视──又或者顶多说这种差别对待是合理的。就是如果大部份的纳税人都认同或不反对我校的办学价值理念,加上大部分家长都反对同性恋教师教导他们的儿女,那麽我不聘请同志为教师,就不算歧视。问题是,如果我校的大部分财政资源是来自政府,来自纳税人,那麽办学的自主性便很容易失去,因为如果公众认为同性恋教师可以教导他们的儿女,那麽我就很难阻止,就算我认为不聘请同性恋教师不是歧视,也没用,因为我既用纳税人的钱,就要向纳税人负责,他们会认为我在歧视。为了坚守办学价值理念的纯正,我可能要把学校关闭或离职。

  另一个棘手的例子,就是私人业主是否有权不出租给同志呢?诚然,如果你没有刊登广告招租,只是私下发放消息,想把你的物业租给一些你相熟或信得过的人,那麽我相信你有权租给谁就租给谁。但问题是,你如果在报纸刊登广告招租,你可不可以因为反性倾向歧视未被立法,就可以白字黑子注明:「同性恋者免问」(尤有甚者,再加上「有口臭者免问」、「离婚者免问」、「看《花花公子》杂志者免问」等等),到底性倾向在居住问题上可否构成relevant difference,成为不平等待遇的合理理据呢?

  在某一方面了解,性倾向不能构成relevant difference,对同性恋者在居住问题上有不平等的待遇。比如,假设有两位租客,一位是异性恋者P,但是常常在住所开嘈吵派对到深夜凌晨,邻居投诉也无效,加上住所肮脏不堪,常发出臭味。与此相比,另一位是同性恋者Q,但他(她)是一位「标准住户」,按时交租,不骚扰邻舍,住所打理得井井有条,那麽你作为业主,你想把你的物业租给谁呢?再把眼光放远一点,设身处地想想,如果你是基督徒,在一些反对基督教国家受到歧视,工作处处踫壁,人家知道你是基督徒也不太愿意租房给你住,你到底又有何感受?何况联合国《普世人权宣言》第十三条肯定每一个人有居住权,因此在这个意义了解,性倾向不能构成relevant difference,作为拒绝同性恋者享有平等的居住权利的理由。

  但问题又来了,如果我想租出我的物业给Q,但我周边的邻居全部都是虔诚的教徒──不一定是基督徒,他们都表达关注,因为他们都有适龄的学童,深怕他们的子女会受Q影响,那麽Q的性倾向到底能否构成relevant difference,成为我拒绝出租给Q的合理理由呢?让我勉强用加拿大魁北克省为例,众所周知,魁北克省酝酿独立已有多时,他们的主要理由,是为要保存法裔人文化,不受说英语的文化所同化,那麽如果我要到魁北克省定居,我的儿女读中学一定要懂法文,那麽我可否说这个语言的要求是歧视呢?我相信不能,他们法裔人有集体权利(collective right)去保存他们的文化。同样的,在某种程度上,我邻居的关注也可以成为一个需要考虑的理由,去拒绝租我的物业给Q。

  但到底我们可以把集体权利推到甚麽地步?我们有没有权利去把所有的同性恋者放到特别的「徙置区」呢?把同志们赶到变相的ghetto呢?是否有点像圣经时期犹太人对待麻疯病人一样,把他们「隔离」呢?

  我不欲就最後这个复杂问题提供甚麽标准答案,我只是提出来让大家讨论。

(作者为美国华盛顿大学哲学博士候选人,主修伦理、政治哲学及当代欧陆哲学。)

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舊回應64則


vice / 2005-05-15 00:42:11.0

那網址修好了


那網址修好了 ,其實是個論壇來的,專討論有關性傾向的問題,有空可來看看 ^ ^


http:lesandgay.hk.to

黃繼忠 / 2005-05-14 03:53:47.0

回vice﹕請勿轉載,謝謝


我沒法登入閣下所提供的網址,所以很抱歉,我暫時不允許轉載。

vice / 2005-05-10 14:12:22.0

轉載


我把這文章的link 放到了 http://lesandgay.hk.to


如你不介意,我可否把整篇文章轉載?


方便討論


這網頁是性傾向討論區,可到那裡看看再決定


佚名Anonymous / 2005-03-23 12:11:40.0

回 龍井


//另一方面,一個人的性傾向不像種族及年齡等,一般來說是較難以證明。//


Let me clarify this misconception.


A person being discriminated against because of their 'perceived sexual orientation", not their actual sexual orientation.


If a heterosexual man is very camp, and is being perceived as gay and got fired from his job, he could complain against his former employer using the not-yet-proposed-sexual-orientation-ordinance.


So, the person's sexual orientation is irrelevant, but the existing discriminatory attitude and practice in Hong Kong is the 'target' of the law, with very narrowly defined areas.


 


 

XOX / 2005-03-23 12:11:40.0

回 龍井


//另一方面,一個人的性傾向不像種族及年齡等,一般來說是較難以證明。//


Let me clarify this misconception.


A person being discriminated against because of their 'perceived sexual orientation", not their actual sexual orientation.


If a heterosexual man is very camp, and is being perceived as gay and got fired from his job, he could complain against his former employer using the not-yet-proposed-sexual-orientation-ordinance.


So, the person's sexual orientation is irrelevant, but the existing discriminatory attitude and practice in Hong Kong is the 'target' of the law, with very narrowly defined areas.


 


 

黃繼忠 / 2005-03-23 12:00:25.0

再回龍井


你真的這麼認真,花半個晚上去想這個論證!這不是什麼作業嗎!無論如何,思考這些問題總是好事。我覺得雖然我所用的那個類比論證縱然不太恰當,但是論證的精義也無損,只是換一個更貼切的例子就是了。其實我手頭已經有更貼切的例子,但囿於時間,我暫時不能再就這個問題討論下去,希望日後再跟進。


 


很快補充一點,我不一定贊成立法,我的目的是想大家能從相反的立場想想,就是無論信徒是贊成或反對,我相信我們都要犧牲一些社會上的重要價值。至於熟輕熟重,當然大家會有不同的想法。但我個人的的淺見是﹕在這個問題上,很難說反對或贊成一定代表更加合乎信仰精神。




龍井 / 2005-03-22 21:35:12.0

回黃繼忠


多謝黃繼忠的回應,使我有點意外及驚喜。


 


黃繼忠說:「我們選擇幫助南亞受海嘯蹂躪的災民而不幫助埃塞俄比亞的饑民真的有點隨意性(arbitrary),但也不等於我們不應該什麼人都不幫助。


 


對﹗(我猜他最後一句的意思可能是「但也不等於我們應該什麼人都不幫助。)。我無意說甚麼人也不幫,我是想拋出兩類問題去討論:(他這樣的引伸也是可以理解的,可能是我詞不達意吧﹗)


 


1.社會是否需要就所有的歧視而立法呢?為什麼?當中的選擇原則是甚麼?黃繼忠所說在立法上「有點隨意性」是否可以接受呢?


 


2.是否有些群體因被歧視而對生活所受到的影響,比因性傾向而被歧視者更甚,更需我們去關注呢?


 


我用了半個晚上再反思上述問題,有以下分享,還望賜教:


 


立法的隨意性?


黃繼忠說:「可能以下這個例子不夠貼切,‥‥‥」抱歉地說,真是有點引喻失義,因為現時所討論的是立法的事,不是慈善捐獻的事,兩者不同之處在於前者或多或少會涉及限制或平衡社會上某些個人或群體的自由,最明顯例如有人被法庭判為有罪而要受罰,他便失了一定的自由,故勿論他是否罪有應得。但後者是道德問題,涉及的內容是教導或鼓勵性,相對法律而言,對人自由的限制會明顯較為少。我要提出的是不可草率立法,因為法例一立就難免會影響到社會上的自由,更甚者可能因草率立法保護某些群體而反使他們成為特權階級,這絕非社會之福。所以立法時要考慮有關法例對社會所帶來之負面影響,不是一味的單看立法所帶來之正面效果。所以論到在眾多的被歧視群體中,如何決定為那一個群體立法呢?其中的一個考慮是衡量有關法例對社會的正面及負面的影響。但在慈善捐獻的事上,明顯地要考慮的是如何運用有限的資源在無限的需要之中,這是捐獻者的價值觀問題。


 


所以在慈善捐獻的事上,我們可以接納有很大程度的隨意性。但在立法上又是否可以呢?單以歧視一事而言,若在立法上帶有隨意性,除非可以證明在眾多針對不同歧視的法例中,每一條對社會之正面及負面的影響即使不是相同,也非常接近。但這是否可信呢?立法的隨意性或許可以表現在立不同法例的先後次序上,不應出現在立法的原則上。


 


 


性傾向歧視立法


黃繼忠說:「其實如果按歷史來講,同性戀者所受到的傷害,背後是歸因於強烈的意識形態作祟,但是相對來講,按我個人了解,口吃與肥胖沒有相類此的強烈意識形態。舉例,Hate speech 裏面的語言暴力,通常是涉及種族及性傾向。


 


這方面的歷史,我是門外漢。但從表面看,單就人的意識形態而立法規管,有點感到白色恐怖。感謝XOX介紹Hate Speech法例,可惜我未有時間細讀。就香港而言,已有誹謗、煽動及在選舉中作失實聲明等關乎言論的罪行,若再在反歧視法例加上對人言論之限制,是否社會之福呢?


 


然而即使黃繼忠所說的是對,我也未看出為何因此而要「有點隨意地」為或先為性傾向歧視立法。舉例如口吃及身材較為矮小者,他們因較容易被人認出,所以就這方面而言,他們實際地被歧視的機會是更高。另一方面,一個人的性傾向不像種族及年齡等,一般來說是較難以證明。草率地在這方面立法,會使不少人可以冒充某類性傾向人士而利用法律漏洞圖利,這或許是《反對性傾向歧視條例》帶給社會其中一個的負面影響,值得我們反思。


 


 

虞瑋倩 / 2005-03-22 01:04:53.0

係都咪學美加D 野喇


美國就支持美國入侵伊拉克﹐加拿大就仍然學以前D老土華人基督教野。


香港有自己既特色﹐好既就學。好似“X光社”﹑“X音XX”﹐好學唔學。


 

Kar Yan Ng / 2005-03-22 00:11:37.0

Hong Kong Churches should get better organized


Churches and Christian organizations in Hong Kong should pool their resources to develop and execute an effective strategy to communicate with the public on various social-political issues (homosexuality is just one of them), and to do the necessary education, lobbying, and public relations work, at both the grass-root level and the legislative level. They may perhaps consider  the Evangelical Fellowship of Canada for an example on how this may be done. 


http://www.evangelicalfellowship.ca/

虞瑋倩 / 2005-03-21 23:24:26.0

我對一D人反對立法既邏輯和理據都覺得失望


冇任何法律上面既理據。人地反對當時廿三條立法﹐到今日大律師公會﹑律師會質疑補選特首任期﹐解釋得明明白白﹑有條有理。我有點奇怪﹐其實談這方面的立法最少談了兩年﹐要研究﹑要找法理依據反對﹐已經一定有喇。大律師公會當時反對廿三條立法﹐唔使半年就有成個網站既研究文章﹐特別針對法例給人看﹐但奇怪為何基督教卻那麼少資料。


我還對自己以前牧師的文章頗失望。(見論壇吳宗文牧師的文章)。他給我是一個忠厚長者的印象﹐也頗有學養﹐但文章卻用多處地方挑起人對倡議立法者的負面印象﹐卻有說要和諧﹐自相矛盾。


 

Ken S. / 2005-03-21 22:58:27.0

更正﹕ 應改為“永遠挑不起她在亞洲的使命﹗”

..

Ken S. / 2005-03-21 22:42:44.0

“香港教會風平浪靜很多年了﹐舒適安逸的日子有害無益﹐”


祥文君打算閉嘴不再講的說話﹐我將來也打算不再講﹐但上有政策﹐下有對策﹐不講﹐不代表我非租給同志不可。  我打算什麼都不說﹐不答應也不明確拒絕。我打算跟他們講點耶穌。

世界冰冷﹐或許﹐他們只是缺乏方向和幫助﹐才錯誤地選擇了同性戀。 我有個朋友﹐是T-B﹐一眼就認得出﹐大家做過同事﹐離職之後約出來在餐廳跟她吃過幾次飯﹐談了很多很多﹐電話裡、ICQ裡也談了很多。談起信仰﹐她常問我很多好奇的慕道和初信者常會問的怪問題﹐我也常嘗試令她明白聖經對同性戀的定論﹐告訴她她正在犯罪﹐但“上帝應許會幫人克服罪和試探”﹐以及朋友的接納﹐都使得她一點都不覺得反感。


 一個在T-B的身份上迷失了很多年﹐本來可以很漂亮的女孩﹐很耐心、很冷靜地聽自己犯的是什麼罪﹐有一次﹐在電話中她回答我﹐“我都吾清楚到底自己鐘意 o羊(男/女)”。


她有個阿姨之類的親戚返宣道會﹐有頗豐富的神跡經歷﹐會評下傳道人講道的好壞﹐加上讀過教會學校﹐對“耶穌”有些認識﹐也感興趣。 本來有機會要求她向上帝認罪悔改﹐但一來不想迫她﹐二來自己講的福音上帝不會“收貨”﹐就沉默了。本打算裝備充足時﹐再找她向她傳﹐但至今已很久沒聯繫﹐自己心志也冷淡了很多很多。我相信或許下次再聯繫她之前﹐她已經聽了﹐或已經認罪了。


我對立法感到悲觀﹐但對立法後的教會就很樂觀。香港教會風平浪靜很多年了﹐舒適安逸的日子有害無益﹐香港教會其實很需要壓力。 未來的日子我相信風浪會越來越多﹐若沒有風浪﹐香港教會會永遠長不大﹐永遠挑不起她在東亞的使命﹗以前聽唐崇榮牧師說﹐他跟騰近輝牧師一起禱告時﹐騰牧師在禱告中說過﹐香港的教會百多年來都未有過大復興。我想﹐如果繼續不冷不熱下去﹐我真怕上帝很快就來親自管教我們﹗我們真要起來了。

翱長空 / 2005-03-21 21:48:43.0

回應祥文


祥文兄:


這點在下之前都提過,沒有草擬的法例看,憑空地反對,總會給人過份擔憂之感覺。今次反對反歧視立法的論點有一些是頗薄弱的;行文措辭亦差勁,增加經商成本那個論點顯然是想講社會成本,但卻寫成十分市儈。


不知你和各位有否留意,反對團體和人士中是沒有律師的,而它們的論點也不似有法律專業的見解,但是在「會怎樣被濫用」和「應用範圍有多大」這些事上,若連法律的意見都不提,就會變得很三腳貓。這樣就呼籲教會寫信去政府,有點像影音叫教會包場那麼兒戲。


真的有需要有基督教團體不再一味反對而去想想法例怎樣寫,即使立場上反對,但仍要面對現實--就是通過的可能性很高!


 

祥文 / 2005-03-21 20:49:57.0

忽發奇想


我估計無論反對的人怎樣反對立法,無所謂和贊成的人數會過半數,從香港風氣傾向來看,政府大多會立法,尤其是政府想做的總有辦法做到,有如反賭波合法化等,23條遲些都會立法成功,論悲觀,我與Ken_S差不多。在情況太複雜下,政府成功幾易。


 


我反對岐視少數人的性傾向及對他們不公平的損害,但立法就聞法色變,但未見法例,而反對好像反智。以歐美經驗推斷,實屬正常,但又不能作準。


 


老實說,如要我分租單位給同性戀者,不能拒絕的話,如我天天要看著他們/她們可能在我和我家人面前親熱煙刃的話,我將會天天毛骨悚然(立法後我不敢說這話的了,2005.3.21說的),這是我天生的反應,我現已是這樣,不岐視不等如想和他們/她們住在一起(這句話立法後我不會說的了) ,我想我有我的天生的限制,正如同性戀者(假設所有都是天生的) ,一刀切立法,誠惶誠恐。現今法援更是有錢人和可取法援的人有利的,我等中產人一單官非可傾家蕩產,我一定收口和憤怒,只因天生愛自由,支持立法者說言論無問題,我不懂法律,就只怕萬一,我一向不仇視同性戀者,但面對支持立法者的一面倒辯解,我開始激起內心的暗湧,也有些鬱悶。


 

忽發奇想,有沒有支持立法者在此草擬份岐視法讓大家看看,可以有個譜可想象,我好相信快立法的了。

XOX / 2005-03-21 11:49:12.0

Legislation in HK doesn't include hate speech law


First, the discussion of the legislation of protecting people from being discriminated because of their sexual orientation does not include hate speech law.


Second, the Worldnet site distorted the truth about hate speech law in Canada.


Here is the hate speech law.in Canada.


From the Justice Department of Canada.


http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/c-46/41491.html


Hate Propaganda


318. (1) Every one who advocates or promotes genocide is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years.


(2) In this section, "genocide" means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy in whole or in part any identifiable group, namely,


(a) killing members of the group; or


(b) deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction.


(3) No proceeding for an offence under this section shall be instituted without the consent of the Attorney General.


4) In this section, "identifiable group" means any section of the public distinguished by colour, race, religion, ethnic origin or sexual orientation.


{Remarks: Sexual orientation is added to the other four identifiable groups after passing Bill C-250.


http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/2/parlbus/chambus/house/bills/private/C-250/C-250_1/372097bE.html}


319. (1) Every one who, by communicating statements in any public place, incites hatred against any identifiable group where such incitement is likely to lead to a breach of the peace is guilty of


(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or


(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.


2) Every one who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes hatred against any identifiable group is guilty of


(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or


(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.


(3) No person shall be convicted of an offence under subsection (2)


(a) if he establishes that the statements communicated were true;


(b) if, in good faith, he expressed or attempted to establish by argument an opinion on a religious subject;


(c) if the statements were relevant to any subject of public interest, the discussion of which was for the public benefit, and if on reasonable grounds he believed them to be true; or


(d) if, in good faith, he intended to point out, for the purpose of removal, matters producing or tending to produce feelings of hatred toward an identifiable group in Canada.


Note: Church has exemption to continue spreading hate speech protected by their religious rights. But it is questionable if those churches that continue to spread hate speech against an identifiable group could do so in public in a non religious activity that will cost harm or death for a person that these religious persons target their hatred.


Think again on what the church is opposed when they talked about Bill C-250 in Canada.


 

Kar Yan Ng / 2005-03-21 08:08:30.0

Hate speech Bill signed into law in Canada


Canada's governor general, the representative of Queen Elizabeth II, signed into law yesterday a controversial measure opposed by religious believers and free-speech advocates who say it will criminalize public expression against homosexual behavior.


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38268

黃繼忠 / 2005-03-20 11:28:57.0

回龍井


閣下指出﹕「如果立法保障上述同性戀者的基本權利,會否對其他被歧視而又未被同類法律保障的群體(如口吃、肥胖、‥‥‥)不公呢?


對,在某一個意義上說,是不公的,特別如果社會有能力應付所有的歧視問題的話。但是實際上,社會根本不可能應付所有的歧視問題,所以一定要有所取捨。可能以下這個例子不夠貼切,但仍可以作為參考。有些人不想捐錢賑災,於是就說﹕「世界上有這麼多的饑荒、貧窮、自然災害及人道災難,你幫得幾多,更何況幫得一個就幫不到另一個,顧此失彼,對那些沒有受惠的人不公平,那麼為什麼要幫呢?」這種邏輯思維很明顯很有問題的。就算退一步來講,我們選擇幫助南亞受海嘯蹂躪的災民而不幫助埃塞俄比亞的饑民真的有點隨意性(arbitrary),但也不等於我們不應該什麼人都不幫助。同理,就算選擇保障同性戀者的基本權利,而不保障其他受歧視的群體帶有一點隨意性,但是不等於任何受歧視群體的基本權利都不應該受到保障。


其實如果按歷史來講,同性戀者所受到的傷害,背後是歸因於強烈的意識形態作祟,但是相對來講,按我個人了解,口吃與肥胖沒有相類此的強烈意識形態。舉例,Hate speech 裏面的語言暴力,通常是涉及種族及性傾向。但是說一個人「胖」或「口吃」通常不會提升到hate speech 的程度。所以選擇保障同性戀者的基本權利也不是完全arbitrary的。

黃國楝 / 2005-03-19 08:12:57.0

To: 井夫, rights vs. duty

Sorry for the late reply. I am traveling for business and have only limited access to the Internet.


*** On the US voting right history:


I think this is a classic example to illustrate what would happen if a fundamental right is not backed by appropriate legislation. After the civil war and abolishment of slavery, all US citizens, including Blacks and Chinese-Americans were given the right to vote in the US constitution. (Voting right for women came slightly later).


However, there was no law specifying how this “right to vote” will be enforced. So, in places where Whites did not want to share power with the minorities, they put up all kinds of obstacles to make it difficult, if not impossible, for minorities to vote. Some of the tactics used were:


1. Setting up voter registration offices in White neighborhoods only. If a minority citizen wanted to register to vote, he/she must travel very long distance to a registration office. On the way he/she could be stopped or even detained by police for no reason, just because they were going into a White neighborhood.


2. Making minorities who wanted to register to vote to take an exam. The “theory” was that minorities were “stupid”, so they must “prove” that they were smart enough to vote before they were allowed to vote. Whites were not required to take the exam because they were assumed to be “intelligent”.


3. Understaffing voting places in a minority neighborhood so voters must wait in lines for hours to cast their vote.


4. Penalizing those minorities who dared to vote. For example, employers could fire a minority worker for taking time off to vote. Or those dared to vote could suffer other revenges at work etc.


So, while minorities had the “right” to vote, this right was just an illusion. The situation only changed in the 1960’s after passing of the Equal Voting Right act and other Civil Right laws.


I also want to point out that this discrimination occurred mainly in the South – the so called Bible-Belt states. Discrimination against minorities was very much justified in the name of the Bible! It was two “liberal” presidents (Kennedy and Johnson) and a “liberal” minister (Martin Luther King) who worked to change this discrimination.


(And in order for me not to be misunderstood, let me repeat my stands here. I believe that homosexuality is a sin and do not support gay marriage. I am most concerned with how one argues his/her position, especially when one tries to evoke the Bible to support his/her position. Too many times Christians have insulted God by misquoting or misinterpreting the Bible)


*** On “Rights” vs. “Duties”


I think I actually do not have any dispute with you on this subject. It is just from which angle we want to look at the same issue.


I agree with you that there is a limit on what duties may be imposed on others to support one’s right. But the issue is where to draw the line.


Let me use my “right to live” example to further illustrate my position:


I have a right to live = you have a duty not to kill me.


I hope that you would agree that this duty not to kill me should be enforced by law? Otherwise we will be in a jungle society.


Now, at the other end, my right to live clear does not translate into your duty to feed me.


So far so good? The tricky things are really in between these two extremes.


How about a duty not to dive while drunk? Or throwing objects from tall buildings? You may not WANT to kill me, but clear you still have a legal duty to refrain from doing these things because they endanger others. I also think that most would agree that these are actions (not to drive drunk, not to throw objects from tall buildings) that require legislation.


At the other end, most would agree that not only you have NO duty to feed me; you also have NO duty to help me find a job.


Now let us move closer to the center. How about a duty to refrain from smoking in the public? Second hand smoking kills and infringes on my right to live, so now many civilized societies would impose a legal duty not to smoke in public. But this is not as strong a reason as the duty not to throw objects from the 30th floor of a building.


Moving to the opposite end, how about if you are a doctor and you see me lying on the road just being hit by a car? Do you have a duty to help? In most societies still you don’t have any legal duty to help. But in a few states in the US, if a doctor does not help, he/she can face disciplinary action from the medical board. Should all doctors be required to help under this circumstance? One can argue that doctors are trained with lots of financial support from the society, so they should offer their help when needed.


So, from my right to live, there is a spectrum of duties imposed on you. Clearly some must be legislated (not to kill me, not to throw objects from tall buildings). Some must not be legislated (to provide me with food, help me find a job). But there are many things in between that are grey areas (banning smoking in public, minimum wage laws etc.)


We must accept a position that some legislation is required. Our job is to try to draw the best line.

井夫 / 2005-03-18 17:52:36.0

從種族歧視諮詢文件看


//39. 現建議任何人(“ 騷擾者” )如因另一人(“ 被騷擾者” )的種族或人種背景而向被騷擾者作出不受歡迎或不為他人接受的行徑(該等行徑包括口頭辱罵或發出表示憎恨被騷擾者的郵件), 而在有關情況下, 一個合理的人在顧及所有情況後, 應會預期被騷擾者會因該行徑而受到冒犯、侮辱或威嚇, 騷擾者即屬對被騷擾者作出騷擾。//


假如「受到冒犯、侮辱」包括認為同性戀是一種缺憾,是一種被視為可憎惡的罪,那麼是否足以構成冒犯或侮辱?這是否就觸犯了騷擾罪?


有關民政事務局對性傾向的定義,的確屬實。我建議可以直接採用「同性戀、雙性戀,異性戀,及性別重整人士」這種稱呼,那麼更清晰,也不會讓戀童等因從性傾向與性反常之間的含糊性而有機會被納入。


黃繼忠的文章就是談論不同背景下適切的差別對待與不適切的差別對待如何分別。

XOX / 2005-03-18 17:15:08.0

Some Christians actively distorted about the legislation


//照外國經驗,這不是事實。//


Not so. Actually, you are confusing hate speech law with anti-discrimination law.


There is really difficult to discuss about this if you don't know or don't care to know about the basic fact.


//當然,我相信反對立法的一方從來沒有意圖在教會內做任何種族歧視的宣講。老兄,你能指出那一個組織有作種族歧視的宣講嗎?//


Are you sure? I do think that many of those who are now opposing the legislation to protect the rights of individuals from being discriminated against, would actively discriminated against others, in and out of churches.


I have attended their meetings, and that is exactly what they feel. These Christians are afraid that if there is an anti-discrimination law, they would violate the law when they fired someone from their jobs because of their sexual orientation.


Why else would they distorted the meaning of sexual orientation? These Christians have several meetings with the 民 政 事 務 局, they know feel well when HAB mentioned the term sexual orientation, it only included heterosexuals, homosexuals and bisexuals. Why else would they included distorted meaning of sexual orientation in the letters they send to the churches?  I do believe these Christians tried to tricked other Christians into siding with them.


Take a look at the HAB site. I have pasted the information for your reference.


This is from the 香 港 特 別 行 政 區 政 府 民 政 事 務 局 website.


“性 傾 向” 指 異 性 戀 (性 方 面 傾 向 於 異 性)、 同 性 戀 (性 方 面 傾 向 於 同 性) 和 雙 性 戀 (性 方 面 同 時 傾 向 於 同 性 和 異 性);


http://www.hab.gov.hk/tc/policy_responsibilities/the_rights_of_the_individuals/sexual.htm